The Judging Eye

[Steve 7,539]

@Katerina @drpuffnstuff I don't think we decided on which chapters to start with this week. In my edition:

Chapters 1 - 4, 85 pages

or

Chapters 1 - 5, 106 pages

Preference?

[Katerina 94]

Chapter 1-4 sounds good to me. I believe there are 16 chapters in total? So we could do 4 chapters each week.

[Steve 7,539]

1 hour ago, Katerina said:

Chapter 1-4 sounds good to me. I believe there are 16 chapters in total? So we could do 4 chapters each week.

Sounds like a plan!

[Steve 7,539]

 

[Steve 7,539]

My notes for chapters 1 - 4, spoilers ahead!

 

Spoiler

 

The letter at the beginning was short and to the point. Interesting seeing the different perspective on Akka. I'm loving the 20 year time jump. I wasn't sure where this second series would go but this was much needed.

Page 6: The Scalping Years, hunting Sranc.

Page 42: Akka's detailed account of the dreams. NAU-CAYUTI, Celmonas son who stole the Heron Spear and led to the destruction of the No God.

Page 50: "There is a progression to all things. Lives, encounters, histories, each trailing their own nameless residue, each burrowing into the black, black future, groping for the facts that conjure the purpose out of the cruelties of mere coincidence."

Page 59: Esmi describing the Empire as an enormous mechanism

Page 75: "you have come to fear your children more than you fear for them."

Page 78: Kids history "hate yourself for who you are". The nameless one with 8 arms and no eyes.

Page 98: "Only by knowing what a man has been you can hope to say what he will be."

Page 101: "Theres no knowledge in the shadow of hate."

 

 

[Steve 7,539]

Notes on chapters 5 - 8

 

Spoiler

 

PG 112: "Loneliness was ever the cold price of authority..."

PG 119: First mention of the White Luck Warrior, turning against the Aspect-Emperor

PG 124: The Voice Absolute. The hundred could be at war with God

PG 128, 129: Kelmomas helps Samarmas fall off the ledge to his death. Mini Kellhus.

PG 139: "I am Sarl-.." We never get his full name but is always referred to as "Sarl" from there on.

PG 147: Seswatha becomes Acamian

PG 148: Vision, the end of all things.

PG 149: Acamian is the prophet of the past

PG 157: Celmomas built a place for his line to out live him, Ishual

PG 158, 159: Acamian hires the Skin Eaters to reach Ishual knowing they will all die

PG 162: Storks!

PG 176: Baby Moenghus is quite mad.

PG 185: The Great Ordeal marches beyond the frontiers of men. Not the same impact as the Holy War had.

PG 205: Going through The Black Hall where a dragon hides.

 

 

[Steve 7,539]

Comments from the video for Chapters 1-4

Spoilery, but great stuff. @Katerina and @drpuffnstuff - thoughts?

 

Spoiler

 

[Katerina 94]

On 12/19/2022 at 11:21 PM, Steve said:

Comments from the video for Chapters 1-4

Spoilery, but great stuff. @Katerina and @drpuffnstuff - thoughts?

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Hm….Not really sure how much I can share. Some parts of the comment include pretty heavy spoilers for Book 5. I find it a little annoying, since it should be clear we’re not even halfway through Book 4 yet.

My thoughts: I also find it suspicious that Achamian is the only (ex-)Mandate sorceror who has dreamed about Ishual (that we know of, anyway). And is it just a coincidence that Mimara arrives exactly in time to inform Achamian about the Great Ordeal? Maybe Kellhus has had a hand in this, maybe there are other players involved…could it be that the Consult is somehow responsible?

 

 

[Frank 503]

On 12/9/2022 at 3:38 PM, Steve said:

My notes for chapters 1 - 4, spoilers ahead!

 

  Hide contents

 

The letter at the beginning was short and to the point. Interesting seeing the different perspective on Akka. I'm loving the 20 year time jump. I wasn't sure where this second series would go but this was much needed.

Page 6: The Scalping Years, hunting Sranc.

Page 42: Akka's detailed account of the dreams. NAU-CAYUTI, Celmonas son who stole the Heron Spear and led to the destruction of the No God.

Page 50: "There is a progression to all things. Lives, encounters, histories, each trailing their own nameless residue, each burrowing into the black, black future, groping for the facts that conjure the purpose out of the cruelties of mere coincidence."

Page 59: Esmi describing the Empire as an enormous mechanism

Page 75: "you have come to fear your children more than you fear for them."

Page 78: Kids history "hate yourself for who you are". The nameless one with 8 arms and no eyes.

Page 98: "Only by knowing what a man has been you can hope to say what he will be."

Page 101: "Theres no knowledge in the shadow of hate."

 

 

Excellent comments @Steve, The page 101 quote is so true. I missed the POV switch too. Luckily we have @Katerina and @drpuffnstuff to the rescue, again. 
Why was "What Has Come Before" at the end of the book? I read it first with some caution. It's safe from spoilers, I think. 😐
 

Spoiler

With Moënghus gone, if Cnaiür comes back feeling vengeful or frisky, @Steve may be next.
Given a 20 year time jump, starting with the next generation and their daddy issues made the transition seamless. Kelmomas, channeling his father's cold insight, Sorweel dealing with his loving father's stubborn refusal to avoid destruction and grown (very thankfully) Mimara's famished self-exile locating and "connecting" to her chosen father. 
The prose here is certainly different. Maybe The Aspect-Emperor is the same forest as The Prince of Nothing, just more summer lush, or not.
Esmenet's 5 year old son Inrilatas, "Don't hate yourself for hating me, Mommy. Hate yourself for who you are." Ouch! No wonder she wanted no more children, is self-loathing and feels like a "vessel." As @ Katerina said well, she feels like she's drowning, in a dream, overwhelmed and without affection.

I enjoy R Scott Bakker seeming to poke a little fun at himself:
 "They convince nobody save themselves in the end. As bad as philosophers."
Or too much scholarly time down the rabbit hole:
 "Grub through the dirt long enough and you will prize stones."
@DrPuffnStuff thanks for the reminder, my distasteful jokes aside, that Cnaiür was last with The Consult, who fought along side the Scylvendi during the First Apocalypse. Kelmomas is a character to follow closely with a history of an inseparable twin, a secret voice, and as @Katerina said, possessive of his mother while disliking his father, the unloving Prince of Nothing false prophet hero.

Great stuff, on to chapters 5-8.

[Frank 503]

On 12/15/2022 at 6:02 PM, Steve said:

Notes on chapters 5 - 8

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

PG 112: "Loneliness was ever the cold price of authority..."

PG 119: First mention of the White Luck Warrior, turning against the Aspect-Emperor

PG 124: The Voice Absolute. The hundred could be at war with God

PG 128, 129: Kelmomas helps Samarmas fall off the ledge to his death. Mini Kellhus.

PG 139: "I am Sarl-.." We never get his full name but is always referred to as "Sarl" from there on.

PG 147: Seswatha becomes Acamian

PG 148: Vision, the end of all things.

PG 149: Acamian is the prophet of the past

PG 157: Celmomas built a place for his line to out live him, Ishual

PG 158, 159: Acamian hires the Skin Eaters to reach Ishual knowing they will all die

PG 162: Storks!

PG 176: Baby Moenghus is quite mad.

PG 185: The Great Ordeal marches beyond the frontiers of men. Not the same impact as the Holy War had.

PG 205: Going through The Black Hall where a dragon hides.

 

 

Thank goodness for @Steve, a fellow newbie. I loved it when @Katerina and @drpuffnstuff asked if you caught the nickname that was also in the prologue, you smiled and, to paraphrase, said, "The prologue, the bleeping prologue." A very small consolation, my friend, I didn't notice either. 😞

Spoiler

Inri Sejenus is an extended anagram of Jesus as Daniel previously alluded to. In chapter 5 we get Psatma Nannaferi, (Grand)Mother Supreme, at Charnal Hall, along side the Womb-of-the-Dead. Very on the nose, but welcome, naming.
Kellhus' hubris provoking the wrath of the gods: "Tell them the White Luck turns against their glorious Aspect-Emperor."
 "The young Prince-Imperial was careful to wipe the olive oil from the rail. Then he howled the way a little boy should. Why? the voice asked. The secret voice. Why didn't you kill me sooner?"
 Wow, the two sections of Chapter 5 build expertly, and this is just the set-up.
Achamian is continuously haunted by the ghosts of his past, and Seswatha's too. Mimara finds him again. She is running away (yes, @Katerina) from Esmenet and Achamian would love to be reunited with her. He certainly has changed, become more calloused, more Kellhused.
 "Impudent! Impudent! Was there ever a more despicable slit?" Now even Achamian, the Three Seas is totally misogynistic.
R Scott Bakker writes so well, poetically at times:
 "Sarl's harshed voice continued to saw on"
I can hear that in my mind, thankfully not in my ears. A harsh voice spews, acts out. A harshed voice is acted upon, as by the harsh environment. Maybe.
Well put @drpuffnstuff,  PoN was scripture, revelations of the past, the Aspect-Emperor is present, like Mimara's POV.
While not quite a 'slog ', this second quarter of the book did read slower for me. I miss the political intrigue as well that the unification dispensed with.
Sorweel's Yatwer-worshipping slave's burning tear. Intriguing. 
On to chapters 9-12. I expect sparks to fly, not just storks.

 

[Frank 503]

I'm the one to be shamed this time, for not being fully "present". Thankfully there's @Katerina @Steve and @drpuffnstuff to learn from and guide me.

Spoilers up to and including The Judging Eye, chapters 9-12:

Spoiler

 

Cnaiür is a contraction, like the rest of us, of light and dark. The Breaker of Horses and Men is very violent, including terrible sexual predations, yet somehow is capable of love and tenderness. He is single-mindedly vengeful (he's not alone in these books), but also surprisingly intelligent, both insightful and strategic. Cnaiür has yet to make an appearance in The Judging Eye, but is still extremely, like himself, memorable.

Achamian knows he is damned, that others will be killed and dragged down with him in his quest for Ishuäl, but is proceeding anyway. He has definitely become more self-absorbed and less caring the last twenty years.

@Katerina Excellent question: What is connection, if any, between the two present tense POV characters, Mimara and The White-Luck Warrior?

@Steve Great pick-up regarding the association between the triad journeying from Kiyuth to Momemn in TDtCB and the three offspring in the tent here two decades later.
@drpuffnstuff Kelmomas, the little snake, is definitely going to heaven.

Chapter 10's excellent opening quote, like chapter 9's, sets the tone. Sorweel found unknown shared humanity, that we are all so different, yet still very much alike. Spending time with Sorweel, Porsparian, Obotegwa and Zsoronga in Condia, reflecting about current servitude, their lost homes of Sakarpus and Zeum was delightful, even through the grief, shame and betrayal:
 "Sorweel had always thought betrayal a kind of thing," "but betrayal, he was learning, was far too complicated to be a mere thing. It was more like a disease ... or a man. "

 

 

[Frank 503]

Reading this book has thankfully slowed me down. I've taken time to jot down notes, highlight passages, understand the work the best I can, strive for insight and discovery. I often plow through experiences, justifying that I'll pick up more the next time. While that's undoubtedly true, what if there isn't a do-over, a re-read. My pace has been glacial, but I should be savouring, present and enjoying the journey.

Spoilers for Chapter 9 of The Judging Eye:

Spoiler

 

Chapter 9
Momemn
A beggar’s mistake harms no one but the beggar. A king’s mistake, however, harms everyone but the king. Too often, the measure of power lies not in the number who obey your will, but in the number who suffer your stupidity.
 —TRIAMIS I, JOURNALS AND DIALOGUES

The quote(s) to start a chapter, I'm better realizing, sets the theme to keep focused on, here it's power, or the illusion thereof:
 
"The old Nansur Emperors had always aspired to an architectural and decorative opulence at their actual power, perhaps thinking that the illusion, if pursued with enough patience and zeal, could be made manifest."
"Recognition, Esmenet realized. Power came down to recognition. It was all naked force otherwise."
"Confidence, which in all complicated situations is nothing more than the pretense of premeditation, is ever the outward marker of power. There could be no appearance of improvisation."

Yatwerian Matriarch Hanamem (Homonym? This is my blinking 12:00 now) Sharacinth. RIP.
Kellhus "sparked into existence", "a divine monster." Silence. "It was as if she stared into her own eyes, his look was so canny—save that he knew her so much better than she knew herself." Scary, The Judging Eye of the Dunyain, of "God." 
But alas, “Cursed be the false—the deceivers of men! Cursed be the Aspect-Emperor!” Gender power reversed, "as her scrotal breasts rounded," taking the White-Luck Warrior's youth for her own. Holy shit, (and other bodily substances).

 

Everything expertly connects here. It's so impressive, it's a lot. Never do I feel written down to, just the opposite, the author gives me too much credit. I can't put the puzzle together, but I'm sure all the pieces somehow fit beautifully.

[Frank 503]

@Steve Seeing your enjoyment, hearing it in your voice, makes me smile too.

@Katerina Chapter 16, a definite favorite, illuminating and captivating (literally and figuratively), scary and suspenseful.

@drpuffnstuff One of R.Scott Bakker's best talents is his impressive, uncanny way with words, whether it's flowery prose or concise histories. 
Not my words, just a rehash of what was said before. 😉

Another excellent podcast. Thanks so much.

Spoilers and quotes from The Judging Eye, Chapters 13-16:

Spoiler

 

“All of this. This divinity. This apocalypse. This … religion he has created. They are the kinds of lies we tell children to assure they act in accord with our wishes. To make us love, to incite us to sacrifice … This is what Drusas Achamian seems to be saying.”   -- Zsoronga ut Nganka’kull

Sorweel is conflicted. Welcome innocence. "Why, he told himself, should he fear these men when they could not even speak?", says the 16 year-old. 

One God is mysterious, 100 mind-boggling. Nonmen worship the unknown. Faith, belief, certainty.

"Nonmen had been obsessed with the mysteries of time, particularly with the way the present seemed to bear the past and the future within it. Long-lived, they had worshipped Becoming … the bane of Men."

"The world is only as deep as we can see. This is why fools think themselves profound. This is why terror is the passion of revelation." —AJENCIS, THE THIRD ANALYTIC OF MEN 

Ignorance is bliss.

"When Mimara asked for a third time what was the matter, he decided that he hated the young... smooth faces and lithe strong limbs. Not to mention the certainty of ignorance." -- Achamian

"‘Why do Men fear the dark?’ I could tell he thought the question wise, though I felt no wisdom in asking it. ‘Because darkness,’ he told me, ‘is ignorance made visible.’ ‘And do Men despise ignorance?’ I asked. ‘No,’ he said, ‘they prize it above all things—all things! —but only so long as it remains invisible.’”" --- The Cleric

Ishroi and Inchoroi are opposingly, confusingly different. I kinda, sorta understand. Katerina and Steve, you are definitely not alone.

"For the bulk of his life, Achamian had shared his calling’s contempt of witches. There was no reason for this hatred, he knew, outside the capricious customs of the Three Seas. Kellhus had taught him as much, one of many truths he had used to better deceive. Men condemned others to better celebrate themselves. And what could be easier to condemn than women?"

Daniel, horror indeed. Gave me the creeps, made my skin crawl. Bravo.

"Elephantine proportions. Cabbage skin. Amalgam limbs, three arms welded into one arm, three legs into one leg. Moles like cancers, ulcerous with hair. A back bent in a fetal hunch. Hands that flower with fingers. The Bashrag ... wags its great head in a mucus-plucking roar. The vestigal faces across its cheeks grimace with their own musculature. The skulls bound to its hair make a wooden clatter." "cat-shrieking tide of Sranc" "Screeching and howling, the Sranc come, like lice spilling from a dead man’s ear."

"“A slave pit,” Mimara croaks. The Emwama, and their proof of misery, she realizes."
"This very room! It’s what they did—the Nonmen of Cil-Aujas … It’s what they did to their human slaves!” Generations bred for the sunless mines. Used up. Cast away like moaning rubbish. Ten thousand years of sightless torment. She knows this … But how?"

How indeed? Are Chorae actual Tears of God? Is the Judging Eye her connection? Katerina, these are my questions too. I'm confused. 🫡

To Seswatha/Achamian, “"This, my friend—this is why I built Ishuäl. For Kûniüri. For House Anasûrimbor. It is our final bulwark against catastrophe … Against the darkest future.” 
“Keep it,” Anasûrimbor Celmomas said. “Bury it in the Coffers.”"
"It was his doom to hunt down the origins of the Aspect-Emperor, to shed light on the darkness that came before him. Cil-Aujas had resolved that question."

"Unseen rulers never slumbered, not truly." Kelmomas is fixated by, possesive of his Mom, gotten rid of his twin, as well as the Matriach (who disrespected Esmenet) and sowed doubt about Uncle Maithenet. Dûnyain dominance child's play. Yikes.

 

Steve, only 3 books left, but they're chunkers 😀

[Steve 7,539]

Chunkers indeed 😅