Curse of the Mistwraith Thread

[Steve 7,443]

Started this morning. I've heard Janny's prose compared to Erikson and I can see some similarities but I didn't think they are that close.

While I like Eriksons writing, I find myself going back and re-reading sections and pages because I'm confused constantly. It's very heavy and dense. With this book (so far) it's dense but extremely smooth. I find myself reading at a nice pace and feeling like I'm understanding what's happening and can get into a nice reading flow.

[chibipoe 286]

21 minutes ago, Steve said:

Started this morning. I've heard Janny's prose compared to Erikson and I can see some similarities but I didn't think they are that close.

While I like Eriksons writing, I find myself going back and re-reading sections and pages because I'm confused constantly. It's very heavy and dense. With this book (so far) it's dense but extremely smooth. I find myself reading at a nice pace and feeling like I'm understanding what's happening and can get into a nice reading flow.

 

I say this having made(though it has been a while) a genuine effort to read Malazan. I managed to go through to.. book eight, I believe? Toll the Hounds? There were two books after but I think the last one, The Crippled God, had not been released yet. My source for them did not have book 9, Dust of Dreams.

I was not, to be honest, made into a fan. It felt like it meandered a lot and the interconnective tissue between events in one area and another was maddeningly vague. Characters came and went with no rhyme or reason and sometimes there were characters who appeared solely for the purpose of 'Look at this guy do an amazing thing to these randos that are terrifying'. Prose-wise... I don't remember anything in particular standing out. If anything, as I recall, it felt dry. So I didn't seek out 9 or 10 to finish it off. 

That digression aside, a common complaint that you will see if you go review-hunting for Wars of Light and Shadow is that the prose is too dense and complicated, that she is overly florid, etc. I wholeheartedly disagree. I called WoLaS its own particular brand of fantasy, transcendent fantasy, rather than the typical labels of high fantasy, or epic fantasy. And as far as words, I would also say that Janny is more than *just* an author of words. The skills we learn tend to inform and fill in other areas and I'd more properly call her a painter of novels. The page is her canvas and the words are her ink and colors, each chosen to craft an image that draws you in and the deeper you look/are drawn, the more unveils to fill your mind's eye. 

It is not, as Janny herself has said, a quick read. You're meant to take this slow, to savor it. (To use another analogy, she is a five star chef who has taken normal ingredients and created something where the flavors and scents overlap, creating a depth of experience that none of the singular ingredients could do alone, but as you savor each morsel, the taste only expands.)

So I think some people bounce because they expect a quick read, others because they're in the 'this is too wordy' crowd and then those who don't apply 'this is Erikson-tier' or such. As Erikson and Sanderson are oft-considered the top of the genre right now. (I can't say that I honestly care for either. I outlined my issues with Malazan above and I think Sanderson's stuff is mid, at best. I tried MIstborn and was bored, I tried Stormlight and though I finished the first book, the 2nd was an active chore(to be blunt, I think his star rising due to WoT lead to him being given too much leeway. Stormlight is ambitious, but I dunno, I feel like the books were poorly thought out and in desperate need of an editor to prune them down.) However, people enjoy them and my opinion is just that, my opinion.  But given their positions, comparisons are made and I truly don't feel it's fair to anyone. Erikson's work is its own thing, as is Sanderson's, and comparing against WoLaS isn't fair as the only commonality is that they're all in the larger fantasy genre. 

Janny Wurts' Wars of Light and Shadow should be routinely spoken of by everyone in the same breath, but(again, my opinion), the series stands above the others for being something truly unique. 

[Steve 7,443]

Very well said @chibipoe! 
 

Focusing on 100 - 150 pages per week will really help me savor this experience. 

[chibipoe 286]

It does! And honestly, even now, with more re-reads than I can count of the series under my belt, I adore seeing all these new eyes taking a look at things. Ways of looking at things that I hadn't considered or had been forgotten in the wake of just, reading them so much that they were just a comfort. Scrubbed away the grime and mundane debris of just repetitive reading. 

 

[Steve 7,443]

9 hours ago, chibipoe said:

It does! And honestly, even now, with more re-reads than I can count of the series under my belt, I adore seeing all these new eyes taking a look at things. Ways of looking at things that I hadn't considered or had been forgotten in the wake of just, reading them so much that they were just a comfort. Scrubbed away the grime and mundane debris of just repetitive reading. 

 

Rereads can be so satisfying. I’m trying to make an effort to focus on what I’ll enjoy and be a little more particular with how I spend my reading time. Instead of taking chances I hope to reread my favorite series instead 

[chibipoe 286]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

Rereads can be so satisfying. I’m trying to make an effort to focus on what I’ll enjoy and be a little more particular with how I spend my reading time. Instead of taking chances I hope to reread my favorite series instead 

True! Most of the time, my re-reads tend to be either(for WoLaS) to be either: I read the whole series in prep for a new book coming out, then the new book, then go back through the series again with fresh insights(sometimes I would just do the new book, then re-read without reading everything else before though). And that doesn't cover just deciding to reread them on a whim, so I would say easily, at least 10 rereads I have done, but probably more like 20+, over the years since I first started the series.

[Steve 7,443]

Janny is traveling but sent this to me for topics to discuss on the first meetup:

• Quote

   

  • The story opens on a 'splinter world' (not the central world to the story) and I have no map, so readers looking to 'find' landmarks in the first chapter sets, no reference exists (yet, I know, but haven't had time to formally draw it up.)
  •  You have to think a little deeper with this work (which is not a big deal because what you 'miss' will absolutely come for you later - so EXPECT the markers to move.
  • For discussion: think about WHO is speaking (and what they know), Who are they talking to or observing (and what do THEY know) and what is 'in between' that is assumed that MAY not be what you (the reader) THINKS YOU KNOW. Until you know, you may NOT know.
  • You may encounter characters OR groups you 'don't like' depending - but - UNTIL you know their moral high ground - (and they may not tell you!) - so look at what they DO/that may not be said.
  • Surface actions vs internal motivation - there is SO MUCH that is not what you think here; but that is FINE because it will out when the time is right. If the reader does not RUSH over (still carrying assumptions) it will work better for them. YOUR assumptions - yeah - you won't know until you know and because 'real power' does not volunteer itself - you may NOT know for awhile.
  • I do ENDINGS; alot of what you 'see' in the first half is building to a convergency at HALFWAY, and then things will take a sharp turn and the finish will hit the HAMMER. (Lots of fantasy books do this the other way around.)
  • Some of the scenes don't appear to be significant now, BUT THEY WILL dovetail into way bigger stuff, there is no window dressing - just get past it - you will see!
  • Most people get the 'hang' of the prose by four or five chapters down the line. It may not be for everybody - that's OK...people with aphantasia (inability to VISUALIZE may have more trouble than others.
  • The style was 'set' to be 'timeless' - not hooked in to modern use or slang, so the story would not DATE...it is building you INTO an experience. Not just a read. An experience (again, you'll see). Last guarantee: love the book or hate it, if you finish the ENDING, you will NEVER FORGET IT.
  • 10. It isn't just about WHAT happens, but also HOW and WHY it happens. PERSPECTIVE is everything, and you MAY NOT like a character at first that you MAY LOVE later - until you know, you don't know....pay attention to the PROLOGUE, it's not fluff....

   

[chrisM 545]

Oh wow. So excited to really get into the weeds about all of this 🎉

[chibipoe 286]

I have an assortment of thoughts about the prologue and chapter 1. Am outside right now, but will share as soon as can.

[Miggins- HobbitHoleBooks 22]

hey y'all. dropping in to join in the convo. I'm currently partway through ships of merior, but it's a slow process as I usually take a while to digest each chapter! looking forward to the discussions on COTM!

[chibipoe 286]

So, with the first five chapters done and six to ten ahead, what are some things people have been enjoying? Any questions that I can possibly answer or shed light on? 

[Frank 501]

The Curse of the Mistwraith, I - V

Spoiler

 

•  I. Captive first line, "The longboat cleaved waters stained blood-red by sunset, far beyond sight of any shore." Red vividly comes up often: dusk, dawn, skin and bones breaking, rage, the desert sand, bailey, embers of Alithiel, etc.

• The end of chapter teases (I Fragments II Three Worlds III Predators IV Envoys V Backtrail) are excellent finishing touches.

• @chidipoe deftly decribes the writing as "painting with words". Each careful brushstroke adds layering, texture, highlights and shading as a spectacular picture emerges. Paint is methodically applied without forced info dumps or halting exposition. The complex characters grow organically and the writing is precise, not at all wordy or purple.

• One quibble. Dakar is clearly overweight. His girth can be pertinent, like when he's trussed to the back of a horse. But his big butt. Full disclosure, when this book was written, my unnecessary fat shaming was embarassingly much worse than this.

• "All three Paravian races, unicorns, centaurs and sun children, had vanished since the Mistwraith’s foggy conquest." Mist, the fog of war, judgement undoubtedly clouded, shrouded, made unclear, an illusion.

• "The anguish of having to choose between the binding restraints of arcane knowledge and the responsibilities of true sovereignty." Crippling sacrifices made picking a side. Do we have to choose? Can we find balance and understanding instead?

- 'Light,’ said Asandir, ‘and shadow, granted intact upon conception. That’s enough to destroy the Mistwraith, but only if the half-brothers work jointly. I’ll add that our princes are opposites with a heritage of blood feud between them.’ 
Estranged siblings, opposites, a green-eyed dark s'Ffalenn and a fair blue-eyed s'Ilessid, needing to work jointly. Good and evil, light and shadow. Reading on I expect the battle lines, the warring opposites, to blur into nuanced shades of grey. This book already feels like a modern classic, a timeless masterpiece.

• To Felirin the bard, Arithon, "You know the ballads. Show me a hero and I’ll show you a man enslaved by his competence."

• Geas (from Oxford Languages online): (in Irish mythology) an obligation or prohibition magically imposed on a person(s). Geas could be a one word title for the first five chapters, maybe.

❤️: @Varsha Arithon's detox well done; @chidipoe meticulous plotting; @Chris Mohan beautiful prose, lovely alliteration, prologue as epilogue; @Steve flows, avoided glossary.

 

The Curse of the Mistwraith is a pirate's treasure. Great job Steve organizing and hosting. @Steve, @Varsha, @chibipoe and @chrisM's enthusiasm and insight is contagious and @JannyWurts' kind involvement make this amazing novel even better. Thank you all.
 

[chibipoe 286]

I will say that the glossary is immensely helpful and should not be avoided. It won't have anything within in that spoils events to come(each book's glossary is specific to the setting of the book). 

[Frank 501]

On 3/19/2023 at 9:51 AM, Steve said:

Janny is traveling but sent this to me for topics to discuss on the first meetup:

•  

"It isn't just about WHAT happens, but also HOW and WHY it happens. PERSPECTIVE is everything,"

"Surface actions vs internal motivation"

I'm gullible but learning better each day, that what you see is way too often not what you get.

Thank so much, @JannyWurts and @Steve. This is very helpful and puts me in an.alert yet patient mindset. I started the book quite daunted (the expectations trap) but found it very accessible. I think I was expecting a convoluted jigsaw puzzle (took a lot of notes at the beginning) but found the characters and story grow very naturally like a newborn buffeted by concise, thoughtful, not scholastic or flowery, prose. I'm five chapters in, loving it and this is just the setup. Wow.

23 minutes ago, chibipoe said:

I will say that the glossary is immensely helpful and should not be avoided. It won't have anything within in that spoils events to come(each book's glossary is specific to the setting of the book). 

I'm a spoiler-phobe, a stay away from the dust jacket kinda crazy, so thank you  @chibipoe. Having the glossary as an immediate reference will enhance my reading experience even more. Cheers.

 

 

[chibipoe 286]

29 minutes ago, Frank said:

I'm a spoiler-phobe, a stay away from the dust jacket kinda crazy, so thank you  @chibipoe. Having the glossary as an immediate reference will enhance my reading experience even more. Cheers.

 

Just checked over the glossary for Curse to be sure, having been a while and can confirm, there is precious little in the way of spoilers to be found there. There's all of 2 things(both related to locations that come up later within Curse) that might be considered spoilers. One of which, well, a conclusion could be drawn for it independent of that and the other, it provides no context for why the event it references happens(and by the time you meet relevant characters, you'll know). But if you use it as a reference as places/names pop up? You'll be fine.

[Miggins- HobbitHoleBooks 22]

Very much enjoying listening to the discussion as i cycle home from work at night. Some fascinating insights! Its funny trying to remember what happened in the first 5 chs as well lol.

Is 6-10 next week? How are folk finding it?

Edited March 23 by Miggins- HobbitHoleBooks
Added comment rather than a new reply

[Frank 501]

35 minutes ago, Miggins- HobbitHoleBooks said:

Very much enjoying listening to the discussion as i cycle home from work at night. Some fascinating insights! Its funny trying to remember what happened in the first 5 chs as well lol.

Is 6-10 next week? How are folk finding it?

Yes, @Miggins- HobbitHoleBooks, Curse of  the Mistwraith Chapters 6 - 10. 😀
Agreed, the first discussion is a very enjoyable listen. The group enjoys listening to each other, so rare, especially on the internet. Cheers.

[chibipoe 286]

So far(finished with chapter 6)

Spoiler

 

Introduces one new characters this chapter, with the most focus given to one who had appeared briefly in 1-5. Elaira

The new character may be familiar if you've read The Gallant though.

First true signs of there being a serious conflict between townsfolk and clanborn and that is particularly ugly. Unfortunately, the one who discovers this is Arithon, who isn't precisely thrilled as one might imagine. 

Also Arithon having our first instance of misunderstanding(albeit, this isn't particularly clear now, but I am reading with foreknowledge. Arithon's idea of what a King is and is supposed to do is something to take note of for later.) 

Lots of interesting little details here to be had and an we end with an impending crisis that will surely be interesting as it unfolds.

 

 

[Steve 7,443]

15 hours ago, Frank said:

Yes, @Miggins- HobbitHoleBooks, Curse of  the Mistwraith Chapters 6 - 10. 😀
Agreed, the first discussion is a very enjoyable listen. The group enjoys listening to each other, so rare, especially on the internet. Cheers.

Will you be joining us this week, @Frank?

Finished the chapters yesterday, have to gather my thoughts and write some notes down. I do have some questions and things to clear up. Much like Frank, I am very weird about spoilers. Even though the glossary is probably safe my OCD kicks in 😅

[Frank 501]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

Will you be joining us this week, @Frank?

Finished the chapters yesterday, have to gather my thoughts and write some notes down. I do have some questions and things to clear up. Much like Frank, I am very weird about spoilers. Even though the glossary is probably safe my OCD kicks in 😅

Thanks for the honor of an invite, @Steve, though my nerves and I will decline for now. I still haven't even figured out the chat on my old Fire tablet.

[chibipoe 286]

Some other chapter 6 thoughts, and chapter 7.

Spoiler

 

There is a very fine line that the Sorcerors walk, about not interfering in mortal affairs, but I wonder about that, given how even answering questions could be considered interfering. 

Chapter 7 The Pass of Orlan

A sub thread we had been following comes fruition here, and Arithon takes action... not necessarily to the best effect. It's an interesting dichotomy, the way Arithon and Lysaer are introduced to the various factions. Arithon, in chapter 6, found the Townsfolk to be quite hostile toward anyone considered 'clanborn', etc. A slight taste that Lysaer got when they were at the horse fair at West End, but nothing like Arithon's experience in 6. And no one's shared this information with Lysaer, so his first impression of the clansfolk is... not a great one, tbh. 

There's a decent amount of interesting stuff here, but I will refrain from other thoughts til Sunday.

 

Also, 8 and 9.

Spoiler

Going to be broad strokes here, but there's some fascinating stuff. We get an indepth look into Lysaer's mindset and how he views the entire divide between clans and townsfolk and it isn't super favorable. Interesting thoughts here in what isn't said, imo. But I will save that for the discussion. 

We also finally reach Althain Tower and the sequences there are really fascinating with lots to chew on for thought! Chapter 10 tonight or tomorrow morning.

I can honestly say that 11-15's discussion is one I am eagerly anticipating.

[Steve 7,443]

Food for thought from @JannyWurts

 

Spoiler

 

I could have posted the glossary is SAFE! for spoilers - there are NONE, I made sure of that when I constructed it. Might have some tidbits of history or a little sketched depth in the entries - but NO SPOILERS - just stay in the glossary for the book you are reading, and you'll be fine! Here are some discussion bits if you wish them:

 

All the points made before are still valid.

 

Beside the main thread of the story, these chapters start to dig into some extremely subtle points.

There are sleepers buried here - Nothing is window dressing - there is way more to the places, events mention, objects shown, even side characters - than meets the eye. Do not worry, you can't see everything from your current vantage - but know as you go - all of these things will build and open up. Threads are seeded here, just seeded, that will carry through all the way to Arc V.

 

These chapters offer contrasts if you look for them:

 

How do the clans 'present' - do you still 'assume' this is a feudal set up? Watch what you see, and think about what May Not Be Said about what you see.

 

How do the town folk 'present' - again, where might assumptions trip you? (The story will NOT tip its hand in plain view at this stage...just bear in mind a social system, and its contrast (the clans) MAY NOT be as simplistic as you think! There are many layers that are In view, right on the page, but your own belief in what you expect will color What you see. And this is OK, the glass will break...you are Meant to assume what you assume. If you stay with the series, When the reveals come - these scenes will play entirely differently (clan and town).

 

How does Arithon get his answers?

How does Lysaer get his answers?

How does Elaira get her answers?

 

Fellowship Sorcerers - how do They present? You see a little deeper into their interactions, both with Lysaer and with Arithon....how do they interact. WHAT are they not 'telling' - and - did Arithon realize this - and HOW did Arithon set about laying bare what was not being said. When he gets his 'comeuppance' for that overstep (forcing their hand) - how did Asandir handle it? There are quite a few Very Telling lines: "The man would not stand here who did not choose Karthan first." and Arithon's response: "The bitterest enemy is myself, then," - tuck those lines of dialogue away, they will found a LOT to come. Think about the Fellowship's approach, in all facets, and imagine what might lie behind their casting of the strands...what are you NOT told, that you ARE told about the scale of power involved here. NOTHING is simple or 'hand wavy' - lots of depth will step out of what you see in these 'ground floor' first view type of scenes. It will ALL out later on, if you want to think deeper, it's more than surface appearances or pretty lights.

 

Koriathain - how do They present? How did they handle Elaira's 'overstep' and what did their methods look like. What might you know - what might you speculate - what might you 'assume' here? How did Asandir's handling of Elaira's curiosity differ and what might you draw from the way he interacted with her? ("He would elaborate on nothing unless she pressed him.')

 

Enithen Tuer - watch her interactions as well, and what she says to Elaira - what might she 'know' and what history might she have, herself?

 

What might lie behind Verrain's guardianship of Mirthlvain Mire?

How deep does the history run at Isaer, or in Daon Ramon?

 

Ask yourself how do the characters with power HANDLE what they have and what do they say, what do they not say, and what might they not say IF THEY WERE NOT PRESSED.

 

How DO the characters, each one (town, clan, or initiate power) go about getting answers, how do they interact. What do they believe or assume, and what are they NOT saying - and how MUCH do they say when they are pressed.

 

More layers are starting to 'come into play' - barely scraping the surface! this is the 'stage setting intro' but what do you actually SEE or Encounter as you cross the land itself, from Althain Tower to Caith-al-Caen to Ithamon...lots here that is NOT EARTH, but many LAYERS lie under every single thing you encounter on this phase of the novel.

 

No worries at all if you read these chapters as a 'travelogue' and don't look deeper into what is actually there (that you might overlook on 'assumption' you think you know') - because it is FINE, all the other layers will OUT IN GOOD TIME. What matters is that you enjoy this at the level you wish. The points above may give you a bit of a 'map' of what to watch for that will hint at what is to come.

 

Welcome to Athera for real - hope you are enjoying the read!

 

 

Why does Asandir say the Mistwraith is not theirs to handle (up to Mankind)?

What exactly happens in the scene at Caith-al-Caen when he 'bends' Arithon's perceptions under free will - way more than meets the eye is going on - just tuck it into your sleeve for later.

 

Note the main characters reactions to the other characters - it's like ripples in a pool - these foundational scenes will widen out.

 

 

[chibipoe 286]

Oh nice! Finishing up chapter 10 tonight. Lots to digest here. This one is pivotal, in many ways.  

[chibipoe 286]

All my enthusiasm for this one and I left you guys hanging for most of it! So sorry.  Comfortable office chair at my friend's place and a fuzzy blanket because office is chilly and even in middle of watching a video I just was *out*, lol.

Can't wait for two weeks though. The next chapters, oh boy. So many questions that have been asked will be answered. 

[Varsha 637]

6 minutes ago, chibipoe said:

All my enthusiasm for this one and I left you guys hanging for most of it! So sorry.  Comfortable office chair at my friend's place and a fuzzy blanket because office is chilly and even in middle of watching a video I just was *out*, lol.

Can't wait for two weeks though. The next chapters, oh boy. So many questions that have been asked will be answered. 

It was great to have you join in for the portion that you were able to make it though Excited for the second half!